Aman : Hare Krishna Prabhu _/|\_
Devotee : Hare krishna_/|\_ so had another doubt?
Aman : yes, i do agree with our yesterdays discussion, and i accept sri chaitanya mahaprabhu to be krishna himself. But i want to inquire a bit more.
Devotee : Sure Prabhu
Aman : thankyou, why isn't mahaprabhu mentioned clearly like other incarnations?
Devotee : Because he is a hidden incarnation.
SB 7.9.38--
"In this way, my Lord, You appear in various incarnations as a human being, an animal, a great saint, a demigod, a fish or a tortoise, thus maintaining the entire creation in different planetary systems and killing the demoniac principles. According to the age, O my Lord, You protect the principles of religion. In the Age of Kali, however, You do not assert Yourself as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and therefore You are known as Triyuga, or the Lord who appears in three yugas."
Naradiya Purana 5.47: The Lord Said : Concealing my real identity, O vipra, I appear in kali-yuga in the grab of a devotee and always protect my devotees.
Jiva goswami in his own commentary on sri tattva sandharbha known as sarva samvadini cites the following verse from vishnu dharmottara purama:
"The supreme lord hari does not appear in a visibly manifest form in the age of kali. He appears only in the three ages starting with krta (satya) , and so he is called triyuga."
Aman : oh thankyou, i never knew about this. But why hidden? And if hidden, how is he hidden when you and i know he is supreme? How does that make him hidden?
Devotee : jiva goswami in his tattva sandharbha:
"In the age of kali we have taken shelter of krishna chaitanya by congregationally chanting the Lord's holy name's and performing other devotional practices. Blackio within but Golden without, He Exhibits all his opulences, beginning with his bodily features".
Srila Jiva goswami explains further, Lord krishna whose complexion is blackish, covered himself with the golden complexion of srimati radharani to appear in kali yuga as krishna chaitanya. He is supreme personality of godhead but his purpose is to show us how to be devotees of the lord. For this reason it is not readily apparent that he is the supreme Lord, and so srimaf bhagwatam describes him as "the hidden incarnation".
And this is confirmed by srimad bhagwatam 11.5.32
"In the Age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Kṛṣṇa. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions."
This is also confirmed in chaitanya caritamrita.
Aman: I am blown, but how can we hold chaitanya caritamrita authentic? How can we refer a sampradayik grantha ?
Devotee: So i asked a simple question to you yesterday that destroys this claim, If not gauranga then who? Who is the yellow yugavatara of kaliyug?
Aman: None else than gauranga.
Devotee : Then first they need to provide who is the yellow yugavatara of kali yug then comes the question of authenticity of chaitanya caritamrita, which they couldn't, all they did is twist the translation. Hence no one could prove chaitanya caritamrita inauthentic because it is not. All they could say is its a sampradayik grantha, nothing more than that they speak is supported with logic.
Aman : I agree.
Devotee : and what about SB 11.5.32 ? That is extremely authentic scripture.
Aman : oh yes, regarding 11.5.32
Sri Santadas Babaji, the renowned saint of the (Vaishnava) Nimvarka sect has not accepted the meaning of the sloka starting with krishnavarnam etc from the bhagavatam. In his biography of Sri Sri Ramdas Kathiababa, he logically explained it clearly that this sloka refers to Sri Krishna and none else.
Devotee : Its well known that sanskrit words can be explained in different ways. Hence they will twist it. They wont accept chaitanya mahaprabhu to be krishna himself, cause as soom as one does, it automatically proves our sampraday to be somewhat advanced than others. And if they consider mahaprabhu as krishna, they will have to consider chaitanya caritamrita which totally contradicts many of their sampradayik philosophies.
Aman : Oh yes thats a great point. But do you have any proof that SB 11.5.32 proves mahaprabhu only?
Devotee : Of course his (Santadas babaji) translation can be disproven easily. Lets check the context first.
Bhag. 11.5.34--
"O Mahapurusha (Mahaprabhu), You gave up the Goddess of Fortune and Her great opulence, which is most difficult to abandon, and is sought after even by the Gods. In order to perfectly establish the principles of religion, You left for the forest to honor the Brahmin’s curse. To deliver the sinful souls who chase illusory pleasures, You search after them and award them Your devotional service. At the same time, You are engaged in search of Yourself, in search for Sri Krsna, Reality the Beautiful."
The devotees of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu understand this verse as a summary of his past times : cursed by an angry Brahman (arya vacasa) to lose all happiness in family life Lord Chaitanya enter the renounced order and left his wife Vishnupriya even though she is directly his eternal consort, the goddess of a fortune.
One may object that this can be referring to lord rama, the answer is yes, jiva goswami agreed, and said grammatically and logically, both the interpretations are correct, but this verse referring to lord chaitanya is in the upper hand because it is just one verse after SB 11.5.32 and according to 11.5.31, its a incarnation of kali yuga.
So if we see it according to its context, SB 11.5.31-32-34 is referring to lord chaitanya mahaprabhu, and lord rama has not been mentioned even indirectly.
Aman : Oh Yes! Great point.
Devotee : yea, jiva goswami in his sarva samvadini, explains the phrase krishna varnam tvisakrishnam as follows:
Lord chaitanya is krishna himself, yet his complexion (tviṣā) is ākṛṣṇaṁ, not dark blue but golden. kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ means "containing the syllables kṛṣ-ṇa," As in the name krishna chaitanya, the brahmacari name given to Lord chaitanya by his spiritual master keshav bharati. or alternatively Lord chaitanya always describes (varṇayati) the glories of sri krishna.
tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ may also be broken up as tviṣā kṛṣṇaṁ, meaning "one whose complexion is blackish. "
Although lord Chaitanya's complexion was Golden, he is Lord Krishna himself, and thus the words tviṣā kṛṣṇaṁ indicate his original form as Lord Krishna.
BTW Even mahabharata predicts gauranga.
sannyasa-krc chamah santo nistha-santi-parayanah
Word by word meaning:
sannyasa-krt: He accepts the renounced order of life. (Lord Chaitanya accepted sannyasa at the age of 24.)
sama: He is fully sense-controlled or equipoised.
santa: He is completely peaceful.
nistha: He is rigidly fixed
santi-parayana: He is the highest abode of devotion and peace. He silences the impersonalist philosophers.
suvarna-varno hemango varangas candanangadi
word by word meaning:
suvarna-varna: He has a golden complexion.
hemanga: He has the appearance of molten gold.
varanga: He is exquisitely beautiful.
candanangadi: The Lord’s body is smeared with sandalwood pulp.
--From Vishnu Shasranama.
And as in yesterday's discussion, i had provided proofs and its proven that wherever Lord's complexion is said to be golden, is referring primarily to lord chaitanya mahaprabhu only.
Aman: i am even more convinced. Yes true, & I agree with jiva goswami. I have another doubt that many times ISKCONites Quote Mahaprabhu to be Krishna himself from various scriptures, but those verses are not available now, i will ask you this question again, tomorrow, as now i got to go, thankyou so much for your time _/|\_
Devotee : Sure, Hare Krishna _/|\_
Aman : Hare Krishna _/|\_
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